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Author Topic: Emulsion Bleed Tuning  (Read 3655 times)

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Offline clutch

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Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« on: May 25, 2009, 09:40:46 PM »
Anyone messed with emulsion bleeds before?? I got the new metering plates and the problem I'm having is low and midrange is to rich and WOT is to lean. so far I have 23 MAB, 43 IAB,  PVCR is .081 w 89 jet front , 98 jet rear with PV plugged.  It idles great part throttle cruise is good until about 2500 when the main metering really starts to kick in. Highway cruise 60-65 it drops to 11.9-1 AFR,  40-45 is about 12.9-1 AFR , 25-35 it stays between 13.5-14.5 . It goes real rich on normal street driving when you first crack the throttle drops down to 10.8-10.9-1 . I need to know what effect the emulsion bleeds have from top to bottom  on the fuel curve. The plate have 5 bleeds with the second hole from the bottom plugged . ???

Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2009, 05:04:29 PM »
Played with bleeds a fair amount. 

When you say you have a "23 main air bleed" do you mean that your high speed bleed is .023" diameter?  If so that small of a bleed should cause the opposite of what you are seeing — the smaller the high speed bleed the richer the carb should go with RPM. 

They used to call the main air bleed an "air corrector" because its function is to correct for RPM dependent AF ratios.  There is a window of HS bleed sizes that will work with a particular combo that will allow a fairly flat AF curve — out side that window the fuel curve will tend to go richer or leaner with increasing RPM.  In your case it sounds like the main air bleed is too big. 

The other aspect of emulsion is the actual emulsion hole configuration.  Emulsion holes effect the lower end of the RPM band and have the most influence over your air mixture just as the main circuit kicks in.  Higher in the RPM band the high speed bleed has much more influence.  The stock Holley two-hole setup has proven to work very well over the years and after a bunch of experimenting with my four-hole blocks I wound up at the stock Holley configuration.

If you talk with Tuner on the Innovate site, he'll tell you about how so many "new and improved" billet carbs suffer from too much emulsion air.  That is to say, high speed bleeds that are too big and emulsion holes that are too many.  I happen to agree with him, and based on the limited info you provided I would hazard to say that that your carb suffers from a classic case of this "too much and too many" syndrome.

For your setup I would suggest that you go back to a two hole emulsion setup with the top, middle and lowest holes plugged; the second from top and second from bottom holes should be .028".  For a high speed bleed you may want to be smaller than you currently are to flatten out the top of your fuel curve but cannot recommend a size not knowing where you are at now.

Hope that helps
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Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2009, 05:11:36 PM »
PS.  If I misunderstood your post and the AF ratio is not RPM dependent at WOT then there is another approach to take with jetting.  You can decrease the primary jet to lean high RPM cruise and increase the PVCR tp enrich at WOT.  Need to fix the RPM dependency first though.

PPS.  What carb?  Hopefully not a 3 circuit Dominator . . . .
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Offline clutch

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 07:09:17 PM »
The 23 is the high speed bleed.  The AF is RPM dependent. It is a 3 circuit 1150 HP dominator with quick fuel 2 circuit metering plates. I could never get it to run lean enough with the intermediate circuit when you just crack the throttle it would drop all the way to the low 9's AFR,  even with the intermediate fuel restricted down to just about nothing . My Motor hates the intermediate circuit. I think with all the emulsion bleeds the main metering circuit comes in to soon at normal driving around town, I will give it a try plugging those off tomorrow and see what it does. This motor has always liked a lot of fuel up top of the RPM band. The Pro Systems  metering plates work good at WOT but the driveability sucks. 

Thanks for the info

Mark 

Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2009, 10:50:52 PM »
You did the right thing converting to 2 circuit.  I still don't understand what "23" means regarding your high speed bleed.  Does that mean the high speed bleed is .023" diameter? 

If it goes "real rich" when you first crack the throttle off idle I think that is because of the .043" IAB (again I assume when you say 43 you mean .043" diameter).  That sound slike a transition circuit issue more so than a main circuit problem.

You know that when you switch from 3 circuit to 2 circuit metering blocks, what used to be the intermediate bleed becomes the idle bleed right?  .043 sounds more like a normal intermediate bleed size and too small for an idle bleed; a too small idle bleed will make the transition circuit too sensitive and cause your off-idle rich spot.  I'd try an idle bleed that is .060-.070". 

With the WOT rpm dependency, is your mixture going leaner as RPM increases?  If so, try a smaller high speed bleed.  If you are at .023" try going down to about .018" and see if that helps flatten it out.  The emulsion bleed change will effect how the main circuit comes on and will have very little (if any) influence over the mixture at higher RPM.  You need to work over the HS bleed to fix the high RPM mixture. 
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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 04:38:35 PM »
You did the right thing converting to 2 circuit.  I still don't understand what "23" means regarding your high speed bleed.  Does that mean the high speed bleed is .023" diameter? 


   Yes the high sped air bleed  is .023"

 

If it goes "real rich" when you first crack the throttle off idle I think that is because of the .043" IAB (again I assume when you say 43 you mean .043" diameter).  That sound slike a transition circuit issue more so than a main circuit problem.


     I had a .078" in it from the intermediate circuit but it would not idle , had the mixture screws out like 2.5+ turns and just to keep it running in neutral.  Ended up putting the .043" in it I was running with the 3 circuit plates
for idle air.


You know that when you switch from 3 circuit to 2 circuit metering blocks, what used to be the intermediate bleed becomes the idle bleed right?  .043 sounds more like a normal intermediate bleed size and too small for an idle bleed; a too small idle bleed will make the transition circuit too sensitive and cause your off-idle rich spot.  I'd try an idle bleed that is .060-.070". 



      I figured that out as soon as I fired it up and it wouldnt' idle unless I put my fingers over the intermediate bleeds



With the WOT rpm dependency, is your mixture going leaner as RPM increases?  If so, try a smaller high speed bleed.  If you are at .023" try going down to about .018" and see if that helps flatten it out.  The emulsion bleed change will effect how the main circuit comes on and will have very little (if any) influence over the mixture at
higher RPM.  You need to work over the HS bleed to fix the high RPM mixture. 



        I plugged the top middle and bottom as you suggested on the emulsion bleeds it has made the difference of night and day the curve flattened way out its a little rich still at cruise  @ 3500 ( highway speed) yet but WOT is in the 12.7-8 range I think some air bleed and jet and PVCR tweeking and it will be there.

      What do you shoot for for cruise AFR this combo seems to like 13-13.5 you can hear it in the exhaust it is happy there much higher it gets that lean bark in the exhaust and anything below about 12.1-2 it blubbers like its running with the choke half on .


Thanks again for you help you saved me alot of gas ;D I owe you one
 

Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 08:17:38 PM »
What I would do next is go smaller on the primary main jet until you are happy with the high RPM cruise.  Then you can enlarge the PVCR to compensate.  If you tell me how much you change the PMJ I can tell you how much top enlarge the PCVR. 

After you get the cruise correct you can work the PVCR and the secondary main jet to get your desired WOT AF ratio. 

On the idle bleed I'm betting you jumped right past the sweet spot going from .043 to .078.  Some where around .060 will probably work real well. 

If you need bleeds drilled let me know — I have an index drill set and can make whatever size you want.

Sounds like you are getting close with the tuneup keep going on it! 

Glad to help . . .
« Last Edit: June 01, 2009, 08:20:16 PM by Eric68 »
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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2009, 10:24:33 PM »
I will try out some 60's on the idle air to see what it does. Thanks for the offer on the bleeds , I have the Holley set that goes from 20-79. I'm going to jet it down on th PMJ next to see if I can lean out the cruise . Then we'lll start tweeking the rest .


Thanks again

Mark 

Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2009, 09:09:36 AM »
Any update?  Curious how the .060 bleeds worked out.
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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2009, 12:48:56 PM »
I put .059 in it for IAB's it idles a little cleaner ,but it still goes way rich when you just crack the throttle for normal driving. I also put 87's in for PMJ , but its still to rich at highway cruise speeds. I'm going to check throttle opening on the primary to make sure its not getting into the secondaries at highway speeds . Its good to about 45 MPH and after that it goes rich 11.9-12.2 AFR at 55 and above.

Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2009, 10:36:07 PM »
You might wind up with a bigger IAB in the end (like .070"), but after thinking about this a little bit I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to get that primary main jet and cruise mixture worked out first. 

I'd suggest that you keep going smaller on that primary main jet until you are satisfied with the highway cruise.  Sometimes that main circuit will come on early when you crack the throttle — especially with a big motor like yours with a strong signal. 
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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2009, 07:23:35 PM »
Quote
You might wind up with a bigger IAB in the end (like .070"), but after thinking about this a little bit I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to get that primary main jet and cruise mixture worked out first. 

I'd suggest that you keep going smaller on that primary main jet until you are satisfied with the highway cruise.  Sometimes that main circuit will come on early when you crack the throttle especially with a big motor like yours with a strong signal. 


That sounds like a good plan. I will get the PMJ leaned out  tomorrow for highway cruise and we'll go from there. It has 10"-12" of vacuum when I crack the throttle ,your probably right its getting some overlap between the 2 circuits .



Offline Eric68

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 10:19:17 AM »
Any word?  How did your test go?
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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2009, 07:45:52 PM »
AFR spiked to 14.2 and I got out of it  immediately but it scorched 2 pistons in about 2 seconds. I'm thinking of going to E85 checking with quickfuel to see what they recommend. The 1150 was pulling over 2" of vaccum going to go to a 1250 .

Offline tbird

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Re: Emulsion Bleed Tuning
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 10:43:09 PM »
a 2 second pull scorched pistons  ???       
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